How Much Does it Really Cost to Charge that Electric Vehicle?

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Just about every article or news piece about an electric car that we do – and there is a lot of EV news lately – gets a comment thread filled with people debating the price of charging an EV. “Hydro rates are so high”, “maybe when electricity is cheaper”, “who can afford to drive one when I can use cheaper gas”, and best of all “filling a tank with fuel is half the price of plugging in a car.”

What we realized is that buyers don’t seem to know just how much it costs to charge an EV. I realized that I didn’t know how much it would cost to charge an EV either. But I wanted to find out. We all know exactly how much it costs to put gas in the tank – look at the lines if there is a one cent jump expected tomorrow – but electricity is more stable and more predictable. So how much does it cost to “fill up” an electric car?

The first step is finding the cost of electricity. In most provinces, that’s easy. Most provinces have a set rate, and then tax. In New Brunswick, for example, power costs $0.1059/kWh, and then gets a 15 percent tax. In provinces with a flat service fee, we have ignored that cost. You have to pay that anyway, EV or not, so we didn’t count it. One province, however, is a little more tricky.

Ontario has not just three time of day rates, but a patchwork of electric providers. Each has a different fee to get the power to your door, with some having multiple rates depending on where you live. That makes it difficult to calculate for every person in the province, but we can do some general cases. A best case in the province, and a worst case. For the worst case, we used rural delivery fees and peak time rates. For the best case, we used night time rates with an urban delivery fee rate.

Ontario has just announced a total 25 per cent  reduction in electricity prices to come by summer 2017, after lowering them by a full eight per cent already on January 1 2017 by eliminating the provincial portion of HST on electricity bills. Since details of those reductions haven’t been published yet, we’ve incorporated those eight per cent savings new EV owners will see now, but keep in mind all these Ontario costs could be a further 17 per cent lower by this summer (or at least the delivery charge will be 17 per cent lower), once the Ontario Fair Hydro program starts this summer.

EV Charge Cost

The next step is finding out how much electricity a car takes to charge up. Natural Resources Canada, the same agency that handles fuel economy ratings, does consumption ratings for electric cars. Part of their rating is a kWh/100 km rating for all electric cars. We’ll use their city/highway combined rating as the amount of electricity used to drive 100 km.

For our calculations, we’re using two electric vehicles. The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV and the Tesla Model X P90D. An average BEV hatchback, and a luxury all-electric SUV. For gasoline equivalents, we have chosen the 2017 Honda Civic sedan to put next to the Bolt. It’s the best-selling car in Canada, and the two have surprisingly similar interior dimensions. A competitor to the Model X was a little more difficult. It’s the only fully electric SUV, but it’s also a luxury one. So putting it next to the best-selling mid-size SUV, the 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport, didn’t seem right. The Model X is closer in size, performance and price to a higher trim Range Rover SUV, so we’ve used a 2017 Range Rover Supercharged.

EV Charge Cost

The Honda Civic is rated to get 7.0 L/100 km in combined driving. The average price of regular in Canada is $1.05/L. That’s easy enough to figure out. One hundred km of driving in the gas car will cost roughly $7.35, assuming the Civic achieves its official mileage figure (rare for any gas car, but let’s assume so throughout for comparison purposes). British Columbians and Newfoundlanders, your gas is significantly more expensive than the rest of the country, so your costs would be $8.40 and $9.24 per 100 km, respectively.

Now, a Chevy Bolt uses 17.6 kWh to drive 100 km. This is where the math gets trickier.

In Quebec, that’s 5.71 ¢/kWh plus tax. It will run the meter to a total of $1.16. One dollar, sixteen cents to drive 100 km. But Quebec does have the cheapest rates in the country, so let’s look at the worst case, in rural Ontario. The highest main grid electric cost in the country is in rural areas of Ontario at peak time. Power then and there costs 18 ¢/kWh. On top of that, there’s a distribution fee of 4.8 ¢/kWh. Again, that’s on top of the large fixed charges, but since you aren’t unplugging your fridge anytime soon we won’t count those. So in rural Ontario, the most expensive part of the country for electricity, 100 km in a Bolt will cost $4.21. A little over half that of an efficient gas car.

But wait, charge that car at night or any time on off-peak weekends, as most EV owners do, and the Ontario cost drops to just $2.36. If you aren’t in a rural area, the cost is just $1.99.

So best case, an EV costs 20 percent as much to fill as a Civic, worst case is a bit over half.

EV Charge Cost

 

What about the luxury SUVs? A Range Rover Supercharged uses a 5.0L V8 that is rated to get 15.0 L/100 km on high octane gas. Premium averages about 15 cents more than regular, so $1.20/L. That Range Rover will use $18 in gas to drive 100 km ($20.70 in BC, $19.65 in NL). A Tesla Model X P90D uses 23.5 kWh/100 km. That comes to $1.55 in Quebec and $5.63 in worst case Ontario.

EV Charge Cost

Cost to drive a Bolt EV on electricity for 100 km. Gas price based on $1.05/L and 7.0 L/100 km.

So now we know how much electric cars should cost to charge. Most EV’s come within a few cents of the cost of the Bolt as well because they’re all shockingly (zing!) efficient. The spread between best and worst is about 4 kWh. But they have some other tricks up their cords.

For a start, there are thousands of chargers spread around the country. It takes some effort to find somewhere rural enough that there isn’t one nearby. Most of those chargers are free. So with some planning, patience and luck, you could reduce the yearly fuelling bill to zero. Zip, zilch, nada.

Ontario, the province where charging has the potential to cost the most, is not just building more chargers but is implementing plans to let homeowners charge free at home overnight as well. No details yet from the province on how exactly that plan is to be implemented either, or when, but it will likely bring more cost reductions for EV owners and potential owners in the province.

100 km AUV

Cost to drive a Tesla Model X on electricity for 100 km. Gas price based on $1.20/L and 15 L/100 km.

How do plug-in hybrids compare? We’ll take a look at how much it will cost to travel the first 100 km after a full charge in a compact hatch, the 2017 Prius Prime; a midsize sedan, the 2017 Ford Fusion Energi; and a luxury SUV, the 2017 Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid. Those are all plug-ins that can be bought as a non-plug in model. The Prius Prime can drive roughly 40 km on a full charge (these figures too are usually best-case scenarios, like the fuel consumption), using the Prius Prime’s 6.3 kWh battery. The next 60 km are on gasoline, where it should use 2.6 L of regular. A Fusion can do 35 km on a full charge, using 7.5 kWh. It should use 3.6 L of gas to complete the trip. Finally, the Cayenne can travel 23 km on 10.2 kWh. The rest of the trip should use 8.2 L of premium.  A regular Prius would need 4.5 L of gas, a 1.5L engine Fusion would need 8.7 L, and a Cayenne S would need 12 L of premium.

So a 100 km trip in any of these plug-in hybrids would still cost more than a fully electric car, but a look at our chart shows the overall fuelling costs are definitely less than their conventional gas versions.

plug ins

So we’ve figured out how much an EV will cost to charge. It’s little surprise that it’s going to be less than a gas car, but the savings of up to $1,238 per year for a car or $3,291 for an SUV when driven the average 20,000 km is a bit more of a shock. Current incentives on electric vehicles in Ontario bring the price of a Bolt EV down to $28,795 in that province. That makes it only $3,111 more than our Civic LX with a CVT. By that math, it’s now possible for an EV to pay for itself in under four years. The best part: you’ll never have to stand beside a pump at -30°C ever again. You can even program the car to warm up while it’s still on the charger. That’s something to think about the next time you’re shopping for a new car.

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Evan Williams

Evan Williams

Evan is based in Halifax, and has been a car nut for as long as anyone can remember. He autocrosses, does lapping days and TSD rallies, breaks cars and then fixes them again.
  • Howard Priest

    We’re still a long way from tossing a couple banana peels in with the flux capacitor! 😉

  • http://www.nuketheprotestors.com Bill

    WTH is a Chevy Bolt? Isn’t it a “Volt”.this article seems a little off on the prices to charge EV’s. You can get gas vehicles that are $4.70-$5.50/100km, why would anyone post.$4+ with such horrendous range.

  • Nate

    There is a Volt and a Bolt. They are two separate vehicles. The former being EV with a gasoline range extender, and the latter being a fulling electric vehicle with a 380km range.

  • http://www.facebook.com/myevlife Cheap Guys And Their EV’s

    Very good breakdown echoing what has been said for a long time:

    Even with “high” prices for electricity, it’s substantially less expensive to operate a BEV than an ICE to drive the same distance (assuming the vehicle fits your needs)

  • http://www.facebook.com/myevlife Cheap Guys And Their EV’s

    Yah, but now they’re building NEW Delorean’s and you can equip it as an EV from the build. Too bad there’s no Mr. Fusion option though.

  • Ivan Pond

    so what is total distance of travel for fully charged and how long does it take to recharge completely for these cars this only shows fora 100 kilometers and what if you are carrying extra weight none of this was discussed say someone had to travel 600 kilometers each way howlong would it take in january including recharge times ??

  • Ken Farrell

    One thing that they don’t mention is that in the winter the range in a place like Saskatchewan drops way down. Cabin heating and decreased efficiency of cold batteries accounts for that. Resale value of a 10 year old electric car also drops to near zero. By the way, most provinces don’t have subsidies on electric cars.

  • claude laval

    resale value of a 10year old EV is near zero? Any EV car reach 10 year yet? Another point there is a difference (%) in price drop between a Leaf and a Tesla don’t you think?

  • SheKee

    My sister has one and she likes it, but even in the Lower Mainland (where she lives) she really notices the difference between summer and winter range.

  • Bob Saget

    Where did you get this info about used electric cars having poor resale value? I know that’s true if you are buying a Nissan Leaf, but from what I have read, all of Tesla’s cars maintain their value as well or better than their gasoline counterparts.

  • Mick

    But think how much electricity rates will go up when more electric cars are plugged in and the infrastructure that needs to be built. Then there is the charging time. Solar power could take care of the cost.

  • Dan

    I don’t know about you guys, but I would LOVE to buy a 10 year old EV for “near $0” 🙂 Let me know where I can pick one up.

  • claude laval

    It was not a complete rundown on EV but just a price point on average.

  • Ian Jacka

    Free charging stations – that means I am subsidizing the cost of operation through my hydro bill?

  • Michael Kirney

    Don’t forget all the other fluids that gasoline cars need like motor oil, tranny oil, antifreeze, etc. Not having to renew those every year also adds to the savings. On the downside is the amount of time to recharge an electric vehicle. Many are getting 300+km per charge now, but there are occasionally days when I need to drive more than 500 km and sometimes up to 1600 km. To “recharge” my gasoline car 100% takes about 10 mins. Can an electric car be “gassed up” 3-4 times in a single day? Not yet.

  • lenin1991

    Not sure about Canada, but in the US, there’s tons of favorable tax treatment specifically for oil companies, meaning we all subsidize fossil fuels with billions of taxpayer dollars.

  • Mart

    Well for starters same thing happens in a EV with extra weight as gas car with extra weight you use more fuel. You are driving 600km consistently on a regular basis then a EV would not be suitable but as the vast majority of people dont lets say 75% of the cars on the road could be totally electric and it would not impact anyones life style. Except maybe the air in the summer would be a little cleaner

  • Dan Wrightman

    Electric cars are only cheaper to operate because electric vehicles for the time being don’t pay road taxes like gasoline or diesel vehicles. This will change if electric vehicles are adopted en masse.

  • fred schwieger

    i have one more junk of math for you to do. what is the life distance of a car. so say 300,000 km. turn your math into cost per km then figure out cost per 300,000km then figure cost savings in that 300,000km it will blow you away.

  • Daniel Leith

    Does this include the idea that the batteries become less efficient over lifetime?

  • myttwocents

    And they as green as they want you to thing they are.

  • GearsOfWoe

    The efficiency of the electric motor and in the charging and discharging the battery don’t change much.

    Rather, the batteries lose capacity over time. More like the gas tank shrinking in a regular car. Over time, the 24kWh capacity of my 2015 LEAF will fall by 30% to 17kWh. My range will drop from 130 km to 100 km which will still be sufficient for my needs. This is less of a problem with the 2016 LEAF with the bigger 30kWh battery and 170km range. Even less of a problem for the 60kWh/380km Bolt.

  • GearsOfWoe

    This is my experience so far with a 2015 Nissan LEAF. I drive about 30k/year at ~7km/kWh. That added ~$400 to my electricity bill. In comparison, I was spending $60/week for gas @ $1.30. I figure that gas savings alone will cover the
    entire cost of my LEAF in 10 years.

  • GearsOfWoe

    You only charge what you drive. I commute 80-90 km/day and recharge overnight in about 8 (summer) to 12 (winter) hours on a regular 120V outlet for about a dollar-a-day. According to my records, 8.3km/kWh in Jul/Aug to 5.5 in Dec. A 33% drop in range.

    The new generation of long-range EVs like the GM Bolt will go up to 400 km (3-4 hours of driving) and recharge in about an hour. (30 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger) So your hypothetical 1,200 km trip (10-12 hours of driving) would require 3 additional hours for charging. It won’t take any extra time if you recharge along the way during your bathroom and meal breaks.

  • GearsOfWoe

    This article compared the service schedules for the Bolt and the Cruze. Basically, you’d never have to waste time and money on engine oil/filters, air filters, spark plugs, transmission fluid/filter, timing belt/pulleys, and engine coolant.

    http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-requires-almost-no-maintenance-for-first-150000-miles/

  • GearsOfWoe

    Think of it like free parking or free wi-fi. Free chargers are provided as a courtesy by malls and other businesses. I’m subsidizing them by choosing to shop there. It literally costs me nothing to drive a little further to the malls, grocery stores, rec centres and parks that offer free charging. It costs them less than a buck to win my patronage.

  • GearsOfWoe

    How many pit stops do you make on a 1600 km trip?

  • Michael Kirney

    Maybe 4 or 5 where I actually park the car, get out and leave. If you count roadside piss stops with the motor left running, then about 8 or 10. If it takes 6 hrs. to charge, that means only one fill/empty cycle per day, so only 300-400 km, even if you charge overnight.

  • Michael Kirney

    That’s not bad. I thought these things needed all night to charge up from being totally drained. A one-hour full-charge time could be easily worked into a long distance trip. Of course the infrastructure still isn’t there yet. There are a number of charging stations scattered around my county but they are all just 15 amp/240 volt so practically useless unless you are staying overnight.

  • Kirk Masters

    New lithium batteries will be much safer and store twice the amount of power

  • Kirk Masters

    You could install some solar panels and charge on sunny days. We generate 20 MW hrs per year with our panels

  • Doug Schuman

    So , will take 10 years of “gasoline savings” to offset the higher cost of EV at purchase !
    By then , the batteries are getting near fail , at a cost of $12,000 ; ..

  • Callum Sproule

    Where, in this article, are you drawing that conclusion from?

  • Jacob Kuenzli

    owning 6 hybrid vehicles in my family and 3 over 10 yes old, no problem with batteries and still averaging over 50mpg. It is about the bigger picture, use less fossil fuel. I also own gasoline vehicles. There are limits to the current use of electric and hybrid vehicles. But riding it off because of cost is short sighted.

  • Jacob Kuenzli

    Not that much more that the current changes happening. Also a short sided view. The bottom line is we have to stop using fossil fuels. We only have one earth right? That means no matter how fast we use something on this earth, we will run out. It’s that simple, if we don’t choke on the fumes before we use it all up.

  • Jacob Kuenzli

    Sign me up too

  • Dan Wrightman

    Roads have to be paid for somehow. Right now fuel tax on gas pays for our highways. If motorists switch to EVs there will have to be either a kWh tax for EVs or road maintaince will have to be subsidized with income tax.

  • Mick

    Calm down, there is over a century of oil reserves and by then we will have alternatives.

  • Mike Fragomele

    Fuel tax goes into general revenues. Like all other taxes. Don’t think for a moment that fuel tax pays for roads. It doesn’t. It just adds revenue to general coffers. Roads are financed through debt. Like all other infrastructure projects.

  • Nero

    Part of the reason electricity rates have gone up is because of higher levels of conservation than anticipated creating over capacity. Electric cars will be mostly charged overnight helping to better stabilize the grid and likely reduce electricity costs. To add many companies are researching vehicle to grid applications which would allow people to use their vehicles as grid tied storage further stabilizing the grid.

  • Dan Wrightman

    Ontario collects 7.5 billion a year from fuel taxes & fees, if EV’s replace gas vehicles there will have to be a tax/kWh or perhaps a tax/km driven to replace this revenue.

  • Christopher Klassen

    Ever stop to eat on a road trip? Tesla’s vehicles can get near a 100% charge (400km+) in an hour from a supercharger. You can look up their locations on the tesla website. Many are right beside a restaurant.

  • Ivan Pond

    what happens to all these batteries also where all the lithium coming from some third world country where there are no regulations for reclaiming the land once they done

  • GearsOfWoe

    I made a mistake with the charging times. Tesla’s supercharger stations charge at 120 kW and take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40
    minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100%. The Bolt can only use the 50kWh DCFC stations and will take about twice as long.

  • GearsOfWoe

    An EV is the only vehicle that pays for itself. I was paying $60/week for gas. Now I will save $30k over 10 years. It’s unlikely that the battery will fail, but when it does, it will be no worse than my other cars: VW Golf (15yr), Honda Odyssey (12yr) and BMW 323i (15yr). Eventually they died when major mechanical components failed: engine, transmission, and throttle body, respectively. But before their demise they each cost me a fortune in gas, maintenance and repairs.

  • GearsOfWoe

    The Li-ion batteries will be recycled just like the lead-acid batteries, engine oils, transmission fluids and coolant from an ICE vehicle. Hopefully they will find a second life as utility power storage.

    Global lithium production: ~700,000 tonnes/year
    Global oil production: ~100,000,000 barrels per DAY!

    The environmental damage from lithium production pales in comparison to fossil fuels. It’s not mined in the conventional sense. As of 2015 most of the world’s lithium production is in South America, where lithium containing brine is pumped up from under essentially lifeless salt flats. Large pools are simply left under the sun to evaporate water from brine, leaving a lithium concentrate for further refining.

  • Colin Argyle

    FYI Tesla’s quick charge Station’s take an hour to charge. I find some of the people who argue against electric just remain close minded and choose not to be informed.

  • JF Gadget Guy

    Added pluses for EVs- no oil changes, tune ups, spark plugs, filters, etc and pollution free driving (pollution is still created at the electricity generators)

    On the things to consider side… if everyone goes electric, is there actual capacity in the system to charge all the vehicles? How does government make up the fuel tax short fall in revenue? Charging still takes too long for long trips (tesla supercharge stations excluded). Running out of charge on the road (people still run out of gas), will probably require a tow.

  • Liam Hooper

    A lot of people still seem to think that hybrids or EVs are the way of the future. Couple little things to keep in mind; a hybrid costs half again as much as a conventional model, EVs are at LEAST double. So you may be saving at the pump, but you’re still spending significantly more up front which may not balance out what you’re saving in the end. The last point I’m going to make is that batteries are made of different resources, but they are resources non the less. They will run out just like oil will. Hybrids and EVs aren’t a solution, theyre a bandaid for an ongoing issue.

  • Jacob Kuenzli

    I am calm. Buy in my opinion, leaving it up to chance ie. Well will figure it out later is why we are discussing this now. Just think if we put the kind of energy and r&d into electric products after the oil crisis in the 70s. But alas, it is now the age of the flying car and shuttles to out moon colony, but we are still discussing the same problems.

  • Gareth Williams

    You are planning for the worst case scenario, in reality most people drive far less than 150km per day on a regular basis. With the savings most people could realize by driving an EV for their daily commute they could easily afford to pay for a car rental for a few days, or even a train or plane ticket if they needed to take a longer trip.

  • Paul Pennington

    You sound like an oil exec. Pushing out those oil lies. You keep forgetting how much it will benefit our world. What price r u putting on this. And another lie. Twice as much at the front end??? Another big oil lie. Yes maybe if you go for a Tesla ( who are working hard at lowering that price but the Ontario government now offsets like 10,000 or more of the price When you add all this to same hydro rates ( that r coming) it is a no brainer. In 10 years you should only be able to buy EV. And big oil can burn in hell

  • Paul Pennington

    When all cars r electric in a decade or so. Maybe two. Then they will build more charging stations. Look at all the gas stations around. They will convert easily. Yea. No more digging up fuel storage bins. No more leaks. Yea.
    And the capacity ? Come on that’s easy. They will produce more from all the wind/ Solars and hydro projects to come. Yeah. No more oil imports. Win win for everyone except for big oil. Yea. Finally. People really have to start to open their minds. Stop listening to the lies coming from the evil monsters who refuse to leave their money in the ground

  • Paul Pennington

    In the life of a car 300,000 at most these days with our disposable society it will cost 20,000 in fuel what a waste

  • Paul Pennington

    Big oil lies. Educate yourself Ontario pays u 15,000 to buy one so its only about 5,000 more. In the life of a gas guzzler you will spend 20,000 in fuel and how many thousands on other engine/ computer gadgets break down. Compared to a simple electric motor. No emission shit. Nada. And in 8 years when your electric motor MAY fail they will be so cheap then to replace. Stop the big oil lies we can do this 100% electric cars in 20 years

  • Paul Pennington

    Little pollution dude if power obtained by solar wind and hydro. And government wil make up for road tax by nailing everyone each year at plate renewal time. The computer on car will send Mileage to the MTO who will access the tax this way

  • downhilldude

    Hybrids are not necessarily 50% more. I’ve priced out a Lexus RX. Similar configurations are within 16% of each other. In this case, that’s about $10K, out of $60K. Looking at the gas savings (even in AB), it’s not that bad an equation. If I lived in BC or ON, the hybrid would be an easy choice to make.

  • downhilldude

    Manufacturers are exploring the idea of swapable battery packs for their cars. If they can standardize, you could have battery stations, and could even have batteries delivered by truck, on the roadside, in emergencies. It’s not an insurmountable challenge.

  • downhilldude

    How much does service cost, for a gasoline powered vehicle, over 10 years? It’s sure not “free”!

  • downhilldude

    kWh costs will simply be taxed. Not too hard to figure out. And the government will withdraw all rebates on hybrids and EVs.

  • downhilldude

    Much as I’m a fan of Tesla, and a fan of EV overall, don’t be fooled by discussions of Supercharging stations. First, they’re not that prevalent, and second, Tesla is now charging a fee to use them, so they’re not free.

  • Bryon Oystreck

    This all looks good. My question is, on a trip say from Regina to Edmonton, there aren’t any electric vehicles with that sort of range, yet. How much are you going to spend on hotel rooms while your electric recharges, and how much extra time will you have to invest to drive electric ?

  • lenin1991

    Tesla’s supercharger is so much faster than other solutions: for an 8-hour drive like that, just add two 30-minute charging sessions (compared to two 5-minute gas-filling sessions).

    Otherwise, if you’re a two-car household like I am, one car is a Chevy Volt, the other is a traditional ICE, we take the latter on those twice-a-year roadtrips. If you’re a one-car household, consider using your fuel savings to rent a car for those major drives and put the miles on someone else’s car.

  • lenin1991

    I have a Chevy Volt, but over 800 stations with over 5000 superchargers, nicely spread through every major route in the US, is pretty impressive. And the fees are low, just the cost of electricity: Tesla’s estimate of $120 to get from LA to NY is still a pretty good deal.

  • K-Man

    The materials required for batteries are recyclable. Tesla has already committed to battery recycling, and they predict that once EVs achieve mass mark penetration, very few new raw materials will be required.

    You can recycle batteries, you can’t recycle oil.

  • Phil Miller

    …and where will you get the power to run all those electric vehicles?

  • Phil Miller

    That is the point. The article fails to address that part.

  • Phil Miller

    …and where does debt get paid from?

  • Matt Blackmon

    Don’t know about the other provinces but the graph above assumes it costs $0.137 per kWHr in BC. Today the Step 1 rate is $0.085 and the Step 2 rate is $0.124 so not sure why they assumed a higher than Step 2 rate. It is also important to point out that many EV chargers are free so an EV owner would only pay the Step 2 rate at home (assuming they are above the Step 1 threshold of 22.2 kWHrs per day consumption) and they don’t have solar panels! My cost for panels etc is around $0.10 per kWHr based on a 30 year expected lifetime for my panels.

  • Matt Blackmon

    Actually if you include costs other than fuel (assumed in the above charts), the EV looks even more attractive given that maintenance costs are about 20% of what they are for ICE and diesel vehicles. Example, brakes on EVs with regenerative braking (most of them) last 100,000+ kilometres, costs of oil changes $0, tuneups $0, replacing engine parts $0 etc. Maintenance for most EVs consists of replacing tires and windshield wipers for the simple reason that an EV power train has about 20 moving parts compared to more than 2000 for an ICE vehicle. By the way, EVs and Hybrids also last at least double the time that an ICE does due to much lower wear and tear (fewer moving parts).

  • Mike Fragomele

    It doesn’t. We only pay the interest. Occasionally we’ll pay down a very tiny small percentage of the debt.

  • GearsOfWoe

    I don’t know. The LEAF has a warranty against capacity loss. Nissan will replace the battery if it loses 4 of 12 capacity bars (33.75%)
    2016 and earlier 24kWh battery: 5 years / 100,000 km
    2016 and later 30kWh battery: 8 years / 160,000 km

  • Brendan Rodd

    I think they took into account distribution charges etc… The true cost of getting the electricity.

  • Charles Ward

    The concept of how we drive is changing. Long haul in our family would most likely be a larger Diesel SUV or Diesel motor home.

    If not instead of eating in the car. Fast chargers are being set up at Restaurant type locations. So stop for lunch charge up, stop for dinner charge up.

  • Jon Peddrsen

    Does not take into consideration the 500 lbs of lithium phosphate that goes into the dump every few years and the replacement cost of a new battery which is in the 6-12k$ range.

  • Colin

    Mass adoption of EV’s may change electrical usage, currently BCH sells excess electricity at low use times, with everyone charging at night, that will change usage patterns and require more electricity at those times. Now for fast charging unless you have a properly setup circuit, you risk a house fire. What you may need is a battery pack at your house that charges slowly and at low cost times, that you can charge fast from. However large batteries with lot’s of charge can be really dangerous and I have a very healthy respect for what even a 12 volt battery can do to you.

  • Al McEwen

    You have compared operating costs but what sort of life expectancy do the batteries have and what are the costs for replacement? We are lucky to get 5 years on vehicle batteries now. We also have times of electrical shortages during high peak seasons, if we add substantial more loading to that system what might the ramifications be to the power grid?

  • Aaron Dejong

    Oil is recycled all the time. I recycle all my gear oil at work when we are done with it. It gets reprocessed and then reused.

  • K-Man

    OK yes, I was Inaccurate, I meant oil, gas and other fossil fuel products that burned.

  • barmon777

    I researcher at a Canadian University (with a contract with Tesla) claims his batteries could last over 40 years, by rigorously eliminating all impurities from Cadmium-Lithium. Go to market is planned for about 3 years. Long run cost increase is negligible.

  • Arden Kroesbergen

    Or you could just drive a motorcycle.

  • Arden Kroesbergen

    Did you also invent time travel?

  • John Davidson

    All things considered I will stick with my gas vehicle thanks. I can drive to my cottage and back on less than a tank. If I had an electric car I would have to make it a two day trip getting to the cottage and then another two day trip back. Hotel expenses and meals for the trip and etc. Electrics are definitely more costly when everything is considered. I could never spend a weekend at the cottage unless I left on Thursday and was able to arrive back home on Tuesday. Not very practical. Incidentally there is a charging station in our town and it has no meter nor any coin slots for payment, so, all Ontarions are paying for the rich to charge their cars in their annual taxes.Isn’t life grand.

  • John Davidson

    Electric motorcycles are excellent these days and you can carry your spare batteries with you.

  • John Davidson

    Still have no practical range for the average driver. I could never make it to Toronto for shopping without an overnight stay. At this time they are a novelty that is making Elon Musk a fortune.

  • John Davidson

    Get this thing on the internet and let’s have a look at it. I will invest in it once proven to work as you say. I have been down the road with over-unity motors before and have yet to find one that does what is claimed. Prove your claims.

  • John Davidson

    My sentiments exactly. Cheap to move but expensive to travel. A weekend at the cottage ends up being a 5 1/2 day trip. Useless for the average Canadian driver of today.

  • John Davidson

    Would not have to stop for lunch if you had a gas vehicle. I often make the trip to the cottage non-stop. Could never do it in an electric.

  • John Davidson

    Poor air conditioning and poor heat in sub-zero climates. Cold weather lessens battery life and thus less range in winters with -30 to -40 temps. That’s what we get up here in the fresh air country.

  • John Davidson

    How far are you going to get with your family camper behind you? How about a 35 ft. travel trailer. You will never win these arguments regarding the average Canadian guy with a family in trying to convince him to use a teeny car for the family.

  • James Echo

    An electric vehicle won’t tow my travel trailer or transport my family of 7. Still pretty useless. And The last few vehicles we’ve bought were used and in amazingly good condition for the $9000-$13,000 range, so consider a purchase price of a new electric vehicle at $28,000+ and the 10 year savings aren’t going to cut it.
    Until there is a large electric vehicle for 7-8npassengers with a 5000 pound towing capacity and the range to take us on a road trip we won’t be considering one. Wish we could because 12mpg is frustrating and expensive but we love road trips, camping and our trailer…oh yeah, and taking the while family in one car.

  • Dimpershnimp

    yeah well nobody gives 2 shits about your family.

  • James Echo

    What electric motorcycle would you consider excellent in Canada these days?

  • John Davidson

    Excuse me! What century did you wake up in? Since when have we stopped recycling oil products? Oil based products have been being recycled for decades. Batteries are not friendly. Why are you not supposed to throw them into landfill? They are not biodegradable.

  • Dimpershnimp

    if you can comment, you can google something. I would recommend it.

  • oldmandan

    “Big oil can burn in hell”? Wow, got an axe to grind? Thousands upon thousands of people earn a living from “Big oil”. Never mind the Billions upon Billions of dollars donated to “BIG GOVERNMENTS” in the form of taxes and royalties. Try to keep all that in mind……MKay cupcake.

  • Wayne Basso

    One thing that wasn’t taken into account is the range of a fully charged electric car over a fully filled gas powered car. If you are going on a trip of, say 1500 kms., it can be done in 1 day on gas, electric, probably not.

  • Scot Morgan

    I fill my gas car at Costco. It’s a very busy gas station, always a line-up. There are 8-rows, each filling 2- cars in five minutes. 16 pumps each filling maybe 12-cars an hour, for a through-put of up to 192 cars an hour. If they change them out to electric chargers, 16 cars at a time @ 30 minutes each, that’s only 32 cars an hour – if the owners are prompt at returning to their vehicles, and not still meandering around the store, stopping for a munch… need a minimum of 6x more chargers to keep up with the gas pumps… enough space (and juice) to charge 96 cars at a time, in order to maintain the through-put of a medium sized gas station. That’s a lot of real estate and infrastructure to provide to give a free service. No way it can stay free & untaxed for long…

  • alltimesoccer

    People can charge their EVs at home for the most part. The only time one would really to charge at quick charger like you’ve described would be when travelling long distances, which is a very small proportion of the people using gas stations.

  • alltimesoccer

    The Tesla model X will both transport your family of 7 and tow 5000lbs. It also has has more range than most gas vehicles and can be fully charged in in under an hour while you stop to eat somewhere. Obviously, it is still ridiculously expensive compared to the $9000-$13000 gas vehicles you’ve bought, but it does meet your other criteria. It also won’t be long before the extra cost of an electric vehicle outweighs the cost of buying gasoline as fuel prices rise and the cost of electric vehicles decreases.

  • alltimesoccer

    The average Canadian guy does not have a 35ft travel trailer and if you have two vehicles anyway, you can keep your big diesel as a second vehicle and for camping and use an electric vehicle for daily driving. Electric cars are not all “teeny” and larger ones will be affordable in 5 years. I wouldn’t say never.

  • http://NotCalgarySunNews.com Caperj

    They do not add the HS charge for delivery and admin ETC, this is more than the actual cost to charge so this is way invalid.

  • Gene Nagy

    The Zero motorcycle. Police are using this bike. Range is still a problem.

  • Gene Nagy

    Sci-fi. Cosmic hallucination.

  • Gene Nagy

    8 years? Hmmmm,our Prius is 11 years old. No battery replacement in the forecast… Bought it in Nelson, BC in 2006.

  • davebarbarian24

    Yes he did. He states 4.8 cents per kWh for distribution (also known as delivery). He also states he’s purposely not taking into account the fixed portion of the delivery charge or admin fees because you’d be paying them anyways.

    This is a very apples to apples comparison. Thank you Evan!

  • davebarbarian24

    Tesla’s superchargers, which they have many of in Toronto take 75 minutes to get a full charge.. You not going to be shopping for more than 75 minutes?

  • davebarbarian24

    So buy one now then! Duh.

  • davebarbarian24

    I’ve seen your comments all over here. What fantasy land are you living in where the average Canadian has a cottage, 6 kids and a 35 ft travel trailer. You make no sense.

  • KrankyinVancouver

    This is a great start to a conversation with my science and physics students about changing our way of living. However, I note a few issues that some commenters included, and some did not. For charging, some city drivers can get along just fine with an extension cord to a 110V wall outlet overnight. A fellow colleague has a Tesla, and the free electric charging stations around Vancouver give her a range of 35 km per hour of charging time. Another friend has a Tesla, and had a ~$10 000, all in, (I will check), charging station put into their deluxe condo parking garage. The electric will easily win on the maintenance, brakes, oil changes and fewer number of moving parts. The ICE will win on cold weather performance and range/towing for vacations. What NO ONE has mentioned, is that a huge portion of the price of gasoline is in the form of TAXES, that goes to GENERAL REVENUE. We often make the assumption that nothing else will change…. IF electric car use seriously started reducing the tax revenue of government, would be simply cut government expenses, and say, well that is another benefit of electric cars, or would we increase OTHER taxes to keep revenue neutral, or increase the price of electricity for transportation use? A quick claim of 35% gas taxes is claimed by Petro Canada for 2015, but other levies = taxes can bring it close to 50%

    Base Price Federal Excise Tax GST/HST C Tax/Levy Transit Tax PST PFT
    Montreal 70.7¢ 10.0¢ 5% 0 3¢/l 9.975% 19.2¢/l
    Vancouver 70.7¢ 10.0¢ 5% 6.67¢/l 17.0¢/l 0 8.5¢/l
    Toronto 70.7¢ 10.0¢ 13% 0 0 14.7¢/l

    We should be careful of saying EV’s are “cheaper” due to the portion that is due to avoiding taxes. We need to include charger issues, maintenance and a tax Neutral approach, especially when a third of cars are electric. My brother has pointed out, that the environmental costs of battery production, recycling and accidents with toxic metals should be factored into the price of the car as well. Not a trivial task, at all.

  • Fadi Tami

    I traveled from Atlanta, Georgia to LA, California in my model X, while towing a Honda behind me in about three days.

  • Pallandini

    Well, I think that there’s much more to talk about with your
    science and physics class here, KrankyinVancouver. For starters, let’s leave
    subjective matters like impatience vs. charging time and convenience of
    5-minutes gas station refill vs. 30-minute plus recharge. Let’s just
    concentrate on science, where numbers do not lie.

    You’re talking about a third of cars on the road being
    electric – I’ll go easier on you and assume that only 25% of that third of cars
    are being re-charged at the same time. Further, let’s assume that recharging
    takes place overnight, takes 8 hours and, therefore, requires less electrical
    capacity to serve all outlets.

    So, we’re looking here at a third of almost 22.7 million
    passenger cars in Canada, and then at 25% of this number, which brings us to a
    little under of 1.9 million vehicles (1,888,300 to be exact) being recharged
    over 8-hours period.

    Now, Tesla Model S has a number of batteries to choose from,
    so let’s assume mid-range 85 kWh. (Incidentally, Model X does not have “more range that most gas vehicles”, like Alltimesoccer
    wrote; the top range of the top battery is listed as 257 miles, or 412 km – are
    we talking “more range than 1960s Cadillac”?).

    Back to Model S: recharge of 85 kWh over 8 hours requires
    10.625 kW output from your electrical outlet, leaving aside inefficiencies. At
    110 Volt, you will need 97 amps, discounting the famous (or in-famous?) “cosign
    phi” – no to get too deeply into electrical physics. In reality it would be
    closer to 115 amps but I’m just too lazy to do all the calculations now.

    I don’t think Ontario Hydro – or any other provincial Hydro –
    will rush to install 100-amps outlets in everyone’s garage. Apart from
    dangerously high current, better efficiency could be had from 3-phase,
    380-Volt, 35-amp outlet with converter but let’s not get too technical here.

    Anyway, what I’m aiming at is that we need to power close to
    1.9 million of electrical outlets at 10.6 kW each. Here is the real question
    for your science class: where does all this juice come from? Multiplication of
    cars times required capacity gives 20,063,253 kWh of electricity. Or, a little
    over 20 Megawatts. Do you know what’s the capacity of the largest Canadian
    nuclear power station, Bruce Nuclear Plant? I do. It’s 7,276 MW. So, you need
    three more nuclear power plants size of Bruce Station just to deliver enough
    power to recharge 25% of the third of cars in Canada over an 8-hour period.

    How much does it cost to build a nuclear power plant? Remember,
    at the end of the line, there’s only one taxpayer – who will have to foot the
    downpayment, interest on loans and credits, and principal. Over what, next 30
    years? 50 years?

  • Joachim

    No! This is the point people just don’t get. If you drive an electric car you no longer go to gas stations, not real ones, and practically speaking you’re not using public charging stations much either. The car is charged while it is parked in your garage or driveway, just like you plug in your smartphone when you go to bed. You no longer waste your time driving somewhere just to refill. The exception is the occasional longer trip when you do want a fast charger away from home.

  • Secondnamemean

    Great to see a careful analysis of the charging costs of an EV. For those where a 150km range is sufficient electricity surely leads to some, if not significant fuel savings. However there are additional pros and cons to the decision.

    EVs require very little standard maintenance. Regenerative braking also means they’ll need a brake job much less frequently. Also EV insurance is typical cheaper than for a comparable vehicle. Typically these savings amortise to $100s a year.

    However, even living in ON and benefiting from an (up to) $14k after tax rebate the total cost of ownership of an EV is too high for me. Most EVs depreciate much more quickly than their gas counterparts. Also in the case of an out of warranty battery failure the repair cost is likely comparable to the residual on the vehicle. The result is not a compelling case for EV purchase.

    There probably is a financial case to be made for leasing an EV if you can benefit from significant incentives. Without incentives a small EV such as a Focus Electric is going to lease for $700+ per month over 3 years (about the same as an F type Jaguar). With a 14k rebate and some haggling this comes down to $220ish. With the fuel savings (especially with free overnight and public charging) this starts to look decent. And after 3 years you’re free to get a technologically much improved 2020 model.

  • JF Gadget Guy

    Actually, we only occasionally even collect enough to pay the interest… we run a deficit most of the time and that means we come up short.

  • Peter Zicha

    I have to agree with all other replies – your claims go against all laws of physics – Simply put its like pouring a one liter container of water into another container and getting 1.25 liters out of it ….. even at 100% efficiency you would only get you one liter back ……….. The tinfoil hat might be a little to tight on your head

  • Saint Joseph

    My 1991 Lincoln Towncar still provides
    a comfortable, reliable, and sure footed ride,
    as when it was new back more than
    1/4 century ago.
    When necessary, I WILL go for another gasoline vehicle.
    Besides, electric cars are NOT exactly environmentally friendly,
    as postulated by salespersons, promoters, manufacturers, whoever.
    Economically viable hydro electricity has ALL been tapped decades ago.
    Bottom line is that ELECTRICITY “DOES NOT COME FROM THE SKY”!!!
    ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY SOURCES WILL HAVE TO COME FROM
    BURNING FOSIL FUELS IN THE FORM OF COAL, CRUDE, WHATEVER!!!
    This “kid” is NOT sold on electric cars!!!
    PERIOD!!!
    Now, TELL ME ANOTHER STORY!!!

  • Saint Joseph

    Every thing considered,
    we have tapped all economically viable hydro power sources, decades ago.
    Any new demand of electricity is by “burning fossil fuels”
    such as coal, bitumen, and whatever.
    The fact that you do not see it,
    DOESN’T MEAN THERE IS NO POLUTION.

  • Saint Joseph

    This article reminds me of the early 1970’s,
    when those environmentalists screamed that, and I paraphrase,
    “Unless we drastically reduce using fossil fuels,
    we will all have gills to breath with by year 2000.
    WHERE ARE MY GILLS!!!???

  • Digilog

    “ELECTRICITY DOES NOT COME FROM THE SKY”

    Haven’t heard of Wind or Solar eh?

  • Wayne Basso

    To cover that distance travelling at average speeds would take almost 32 hours travelling non-stop. I find it difficult to see how you could cover it in 3 days considering you would have to stop and recharge your vehicle every couple hundred miles.

  • Fadi Tami

    We had four people in the car, drove/charged non-stop. its easy with four military men in the car! and a charge rate of 300mi/hr.

  • GearsOfWoe

    Battery failure is looking less and less likely as the first generation of EVs enter their 7th year on the market. Manufacturers have even increased their warranties to 8years/160,000km which I believe exceeds most ICEV powertrain warranties.

  • Wayne Basso

    I see. That makes it possible.

  • Bruce Wills

    At what cost? Ontario pays solar & wind farms 10 to 20 X the price they sell it to the U.S.A. for.

  • Erick

    I assume you mean they are all tapped in your area?

  • GearsOfWoe

    You make me feel optimistic about EVs. Unlike some commenters, at least you will consider an EV if and when the tech meets your needs.

  • djr417

    And the environmental costs of burning gas, extraction, pipelines, oil leaks…etc etc.

  • JF Gadget Guy

    I am very much in favour of ev’s. All I’m pointing out is that there wii also be some challenges as usage increases (no new technology is perfect). People point out that solar could be used to charge vehicles, yet also say they will be charged at home at night (when it’s dark and battery technology to store a charge is still being developed). There may be adequate supply, but distribution to your neighbourhood may not be able to support everyone plugging in when they get home (or if they set a timer, it will be for the same time most likely). Oh and when I speak of usage and scale, I am not thinking of just little Ontario or Canada… think about all the cars in the US and other large markets.

    Nobody has mentioned the battery disposal (much but not all can be recycled) down the road or the sourcing of the metals/chemicals for the batteries.

    We will evolve solutions for these things, and there is lots of time. This is a very good technology. But there are still some things that will need to be worked out.

  • KrankyinVancouver

    Very true, but often discussed and well known, so not a very useful new point that people had not considered, but quantifying environmental and social costs clearly is not a trivial task for ANY technology.

  • Andrew Chartrand

    I need the ranges to increase significantly before I even consider it. Western Canada it’s not unheard of having to go 150km + just to get to any major center. I get you can charge over night but now I’m gonna need to spend hours charging in the city just to make it home. I understand nobody cares about anybody outside the city. But I suppose if you switch everybody living in metropolitan areas where there are far more cars and they drive far shorter distances then perhaps that’s a step in the right direction

  • Scott Hughes

    80 cents per kwh is what our idiot premier agreed to pay whether we use it or not.

    Our global adjustment charge covers all the shortfalls that our time of use fails to cover which makes our cost the most expensive in the world. Thanks to those that voted Liberal or civil servants voting for their paycheques. Our over production is sold to NY and Michigan for 2.3 cents so its a lot more than 10 to 20times

  • RehabRalph

    Tesla Model 3 is 200 MILES plus…

  • RehabRalph

    I guess my solar panels are “tapped out”…wtf?

  • Andrew Chartrand

    Nearest city is 158km. So there and back would pretty much drain. Curious to see if there is any difference in cold weather? Wind? So many variables. Same issue I have with the gas millage claims by automakers. How long does a charge take?

  • Robin

    You are so wrong. Thermal, wind, tidal, solar. Whatcentury do you live in?

  • Jeff Jeff

    Well I know for a fact that right at the border crossing in Cornwall Ontario there is a charging station. It’s at the ramada. I saw many Teslas there while I stayed at ramada last summer. Don’t know about the rest of your journey though. Hope that helps 🙂

  • KrankyinVancouver

    I drive about 10 000 km a year now, and used to drive about 7 000 km per year. We have the car as a convenience and security to do shopping loops and fun trips. Most of the extra mileage has been added driving to the US Costco to buy food and fill up with gas, including two 20l Jerry cans. All of my monthly gas is taken care of with one monthly trip in our 2009 Honda Fit, which is among the least expensive ICE vehicles to run. Between walking, convenient transit and the car trips, I do not see how ANY OWNED electric vehicle option can be cheaper than my current solution. I posed such a problem as a bonus question to my physics 12 students, just how far could I drive, given the specs of the Fit, to just break even with current gas price differentials. I pay now about $80 CDN per month for fuel.

  • yerallnuts

    Your Quebec data is wrong. The rate you used applies to the first 30kWh of power per day and almost no one who isn’t living in a cave exceeds that number every month. By way of example, my home’s daily consumption over the past 60 days was 178 kWh per day.

    The proper number to have used is 8.68 cents, which puts your Quebec costs for the Bolt up to $352 from the displayed $232. The other displayed prices would need to be similarly recalculated .

    Now, it is possible to (possibly) save some money in Quebec if you are on a DT (Dual Tariff) plan for bi-energy users where the rates are quite low when the temperatures are above a set point, but onerously expensive when they are below. However that is misleading, since they have been carefully collated so that the average charge is exactly what it is for the normal user, but allows them to save money by switching to gas (or oil) when heat pumps become inefficient and furnaces have the most demand. In other words, your car likely would cost the same on the DT rate or not.

  • yerallnuts

    I live where most of our power is hydroelectric – it’s good for air pollution, but the impact on the water, not so much – but it is likely the best generally applicable solution these days.

    Each of the alternative energy sources you’ve quoted has it’s own list of dirty environmental secrets – Solar is disruptive to the local environment and has serious environmental impact in it’s manufacture – not to mention that it doesn’t deliver energy at night, and limited energy on dark days and in the snow belt you have to deal with keeping the white stuff off the arrays.

    Tidal impacts on the marine environment and again is not dependable (except perhaps while the Tides are running in the Bay of Fundy).

    Wind – look up bird kills – and then look at the de-icing procedures for those things – aside from the Glycol they pour on the blades which then soaks into the ground, it is applied using helicopters. And again there’s a reliability issue.

    Thermal? I suspect you meant Geo-Thermal, since every coal, oil and nuclear power plant is a thermal generating facility.

    Geothermal power is probably the closest to an ideal alternative source of clean and dependable (almost eco-friendly) power. But it too is by no means perfect

    For geothermal power you need to be living in the right place – there is a cluster of geothermal power generators in California and, as of 2004, five countries (El Salvador, Kenya, the Philippines, Iceland, and Costa Rica) generate more than 15% of their electricity from geothermal sources. But it is by no means universal and the installations are environmentally intrusive.

  • yerallnuts

    Yup – and follow the money. I can imagine that a significant portion of that excess is returned in the form of envelopes stuffed with cash

  • geo duncan

    Rooftop solar panels and wind generator. The sun/wind does not charge for it’s energy.

  • yerallnuts

    John. Electric motorcycles are OK for a quick hop into town, but they have very limited range and are not suited to recreational riding. I’ve tested a couple of the bikes from Zero. I was not impressed.

  • yerallnuts

    My vehicle gets 1000 km from a tank of gas on a superhighway. I get about 600 km in normal mixed driving – so even your two 5 minute stops wouldn’t be required for my vehicle, nor would I be stuck out in the country if I got to my destination and discovered the power was out.

  • yerallnuts

    That government subsidy for those shiny new EVs will disappear as the numbers of vehicles climbs . . . . .and they will figure out how to tax the EV users for the energy they consume.

    In the meantime consider that the $20K in fuel costs includes about $12K in taxes . . . . which the governments will need to recoup. So the TRUE comparison of operating costs has to include the amount of tax that the government realises . . . . as those tax dollars from us gas-guzzer owners dry up (pun intended), they will be looking to get those dollars from the EV market . . and it won’t be pretty.

  • yerallnuts

    You are *way* above the average . . . . the typical residential installation is good for 5 KW. Assuming perfect conditions (10 hours of bright sunlight on average for each and every day of the year) you’d get 18.25 MWh. Not ever gonna happen in Montreal.

    This sucks for you, because you’d probably be at work with your vehicle and wouldn’t be able to use it to charge your EV.

  • Anibal Jodorcovsky

    The use of tires and bearings is much lower on an EV than on a comparable gas car. The fact that the motor uses regenerative breaking will use MUCH less of your brake pads than a gas car. It’s not uncommon to see BEVs with over 100,000Km on their original brakes – something unheard of in gas cars. The maintenance of gas cars, with all the fluids, belts, and moving pieces is a lot more than a comparable BEV. The prices are still high for BEVs though, and dollar-to-dollar might still be more expensive than a regular gas car, but that’s about to change with more and more manufacturers making more affordable BEVs.

  • Heiko

    all good till you need to replace the battery!

  • Sean Stroud

    Your Solar panels are made from Petroleum byproducts as is virtually all synthetics. Not to mention wind / solar/ geothermal require alternative energy sources. They need to be able to offset power when the electrical rate of return on renewables dips below the needed output for said energy plant. Which comes in the form of Natural gas plants etc…

  • Sean Stroud

    The main issue I see with this comparison and it is done pretty well! is that we aren’t taking into account taxes. If a vast majority changed from gas run to electric you would also see the taxes move as well. So if we are to compare apples to apples, take the tax portion as well out of gas sales. Then we would understand better what the actual difference is. Electric vehicles are definitely getting better but the major problem I still see is charging. Even with extra batteries if you are on a long road trip, Electric cars make you stop for a period of time. You can fuel with gas and be back out on the road in 5 minutes. I don’t care what argument you have for electricity you can only carry so many extra batteries and you then at some point need to charge. You cannot take short stops for fuel. You have to eventually start taking hour breaks. This is where electricity for me loses appeal.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    125,000 km on our two EV’s, original battery packs, less than 3% total degradation of range in 4+ years. Your FUD doesn’t work.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    My Smart Fortwo Electric drive is cheaper to drive on 10000 km per year than any other vehicle I could have purchased new. At least $80 / mo savings on gas. On a cheap $150/mo lease, it’s like driving a $70/mo gas car … never seen that!

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    We own a Tesla 85, 400 km range in summer, 360 km in the winter. Most of the destinations we visit have charging, and for those that don’t we supercharge.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    Join “tesla motors club forum”, lots of Canadian drivers taking road trips from Ontario to east coast.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    Your ignorance of climate science is understandable, not everyone can read… The climate is warming, just like it takes time for winter snow to melt, so will the ice caps, and there’s very little anyone can do once the atmosphere contains so much CO2 that planet Earth is effectively under a warm blanket. As the ice melts, the sun’s rays are reflected less, and it’s a viscous cycle.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    Buildings and house cats kills birds. Wind turbines aren’t even in the top 10 killers. You’re spouting complete lies and FUD. Stop to think before you post.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    Sorry you’re so poor you drive a car that pollutes more than 10x the normal gas car produced today.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    Ontario’s most recent wind turbine installations quoted $0.08/kWh, cheaper than Nuclear (and worse after the $20B refit, we’re going to get completely screwed by that). Wind is cheap. So is your talk.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    I have a Smart electric drive, costs equivalent to a gas car at $70/mo lease … it is entirely possible to drive without gas and save money doing so.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    My Smart electric drive uses less materials in manufacturing, less consumption of energy over it’s lifetime by 2x over a comparable car it’s size, and 3x less than the standard car over 100 000 km. Trying to justify FUD about battery production is missing the point, there are scientifically verified analysis that shows what I am saying, and as a teacher, you only need google to find it.

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    We drove to NY City from Toronto in our second day of ownership of our Tesla S 85. Took the same amount of time (11 hrs) as a gas car would, we stopped to supercharge at lunch, dinner and for a break, every 3 hours like you would with kids in the car on any family trip

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    You bought a $12K SUV that fits 7 and tows a trailer, that must be a complete piece of junk … at 12 mpg you are paying 5x more for fuel in your vehicle than I am in my EV’s…

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    You’re making things up. At 600 km for a full tank, the average vehicle can only drive 200 km more before refueling that our Model S. Tesla superchargers add 300 km of range in 30 minutes. Hotels cost nothing to charge, we stay at hotels where they provide charging for free, about a $10 benefit compared to your gas car which cannot refuel overnight for free!

  • http://mysmartelectricdrive.blogspot.ca/ Smart Electric

    You drive a vehicle with the most energy dense fuel, gasoline, more people die in car fires than die from electrical shock from high voltage batteries as a percentage of ownership. You’re fear is mistaken.

  • KrankyinVancouver

    Thank you. I regularly take four plus me and I simply do not fit into a lot of cars. I want a big Tesla and will pursue the charger options. The acceleration is awesome.

  • yerallnuts

    So there were some 55,000 or so wind turbine bird kills (and that’s conservative, because of the limitations of the study) in 2015 in Ontario alone. The number worldwide is obviously much, much higher. However just because it isn’t in the top 10 (perhaps in part because there really aren’t all that many wind turbines as compared to the numbers of cats out there) doesn’t mean that we should discount the fact that where there are wind turbines birds die in large numbers.

    Yes. Cats kill birds. And I suppose that birds flying into houses could be killed, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that Turbines are bird killers – and while I’m at it, the low frequency acoustic emissions affect both humans and animals.

    But the one that got me was the de-icing procedure I saw being performed. Considering how expensive it is, I suppose it makes sense to use helicopters to spray glycol all over iced up blades and the fluid then leeches into the ground . . . .

    It just doesn’t appear to be an environmentally responsible way to manage a supposedly ‘green’ resource .

    Oh, and I forgot to include the fact that wind power is not a dependable power source . . . . I suppose it’s OK for non-essential power that we can do without on calm days, no different than solar on cloudy days or after snowfalls or wave power.

  • Wayne Basso

    If you weren’t out for a family drive and had to make the 7 hour trip quickly you would not be able to make it. There’s that, plus charging stations are not readily available everywhere.

  • James Echo

    Actually it’s in terrific shape. Rebuilt engine. Rebuilt tranny. Brand new tires, brakes and suspension. New tow wiring. New hitch up front for bike racks. New windshield. Expedition Eddie Bauer, full load including heated and airconditioned seats. It’s gets 12mpg running errands. 18-20 highway. 10-12 towing. Having a tow vehicle that seats 8 isn’t going to get good fuel economy. Just a fact. However when it’s out of gas it takes 3 minutes to fill and keep going. Someone suggested a Tesla X. Lol. Over $100,000 and its range drops up to 60% when towing. So I could not take it on a road trip with my travel more than an hour away and once at an off grid camping location I would be stranded. I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for that extra $90,000. Like I said, there is no electric option that is practical. But nice try.

  • lenin1991

    Enjoy continuing to fund Middle Eastern & Russian oil cartels, and spending more of your money to do so!

  • Margaret

    It’s not much the COST (although that IS a factor), but the DISTANCE between available sources of “power”. In Canada, you can drive for HOURS before getting to a gas station, let alone a source of “Plug-in Power”. And, in Western Canada, where there are a LOT of EXTREMELY large hills/steep grades, you’re going to use MORE power to get from “point A to point B”. So while “plugging in” a Tesla is a “good deal” in places like Metro Toronto, it’s NOT so “great” for off the beaten places in rural Canada.

  • Kevin McLean

    I am not sure how we can do any kind of large-scale power project without some level of environmental impact. However, it seems that alternative energy sources are somehow expected to be zero impact. I think we need to look at these energy sources as perhaps a means of reducing the current excessively large carbon footprint and spreading the inevitable impact of our consumption. They are not perfect, but cannot simply continue in our current direction.

  • Jean Simard

    True if all you do is drive around your town and nowhere else!

  • yerallnuts

    Please get off the soapbox. Your power is taxed nowhere near as much as gasoline and you guys are given passes on excise and related taxes, not to mention huge rebates to offset the real price of htese things – so essentially I’m paying a large part of the costs related to YOUR vehicle.

    You can thank me any time/

  • yerallnuts

    I know you don’t live in Canada, but for the record, we don’t get any oil from Russia and most of our imported oil comes from Texas. The rest does come from the Middle East (We don’t have to import any, since we are a net exporter of oil and have the second largest reserves in the world, but the government has been dragging it’s heels on allowing TC Pipeline to reverse the direction of an existing pipeline).

  • http://www.credativ.ca Dave Cramer

    Yes, you need to remove the 14.3 cents/litre tax out of the fuel costs to get a fair comparison

  • GearsOfWoe

    Every EV has an 8year/160,000km capacity loss warranty which is longer than most ICE drivetrain guarantees. Hyundai and Tesla have unlimited miles. You can bet the bean counters made sure it would never be used.

  • GearsOfWoe

    $30/mo in electricity to drive ~30k per year in a 2015 Nissan LEAF. Instead of driving to the US for gas, I just plug it in when I get home. I don’t see how life could be any more convenient.

  • GearsOfWoe

    You are right, an EV is not practical for your lifestyle. Unless you can afford a Tesla. They have a network of superchargers and destination chargers that might allow you to travel for free through most of the US and Eastern Canada, BC and Alberta.

  • GearsOfWoe

    You appear to know a lot about renewable energy, so I think you know exactly how many birds are killed in collisions with buildings each year. From FLAP Canada.

    “An estimated 1 to 10 birds die per building, per year. The
    City of Toronto has over 950,000 registered buildings that could
    potentially kill over 9 million birds each year. Across North America,
    the estimated number of migrating birds killed annually in collisions
    with buildings ranges from 100 million to 1 billion birds.”

  • GearsOfWoe

    What do the engineers have to say?…

    “One study by the University of Victoria’s Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions found that even in winter, when electricity demand is highest, B.C. had the unused capacity on its grid to charge nearly 2.4 million light-duty vehicles — almost all the 2.8 million registered vehicles in the province.”

    “We did our homework and we could easily, in Quebec, welcome a million electric vehicles without having to make any major investments in our infrastructure or systems,” spokesman Louis-Olivier Batty said. “It would be two to three per cent of electricity sales in the province.”

    “If one million vehicles, or 13 per cent of Ontario’s total, are electric by [2035], recharging them would use 2.2 per cent of Ontario’s electrical-grid capacity. The IESO is betting on a middle ground, a 50-per-cent annual increase in electric-car sales that will put 600,000 of the vehicles on Ontario roads by 2035.”

  • GearsOfWoe

    Ontario has 2.2 Terawatt-hr of wind generated electricity which, as you point out, is much more valuable if kept in the province to fuel a fleet of electric vehicles. Even at industrial rates of $70/MW, that is $70 million/year which easily covers the current EV incentives and guarantees revenues for many many years afterwards.

  • GearsOfWoe

    The environmental and health costs of vehicle emissions are the ONLY point that needs to be considered. The Lower Mainland is a closed airshed that is always in danger of looking like LA. Cost/benefit is central to the region’s airshed management plans. The cost of mitigation per tonne of pollutant weighed against morbidity, mortality and avoided health care. That is why it was worth it to close Burrard Thermal and the Burnaby Incinerator, provide shore power to cruise ships and require low-sulfur bunker fuels, put catalytic converters, vapour recovery systems and ODBC II on new cars, AirCare and the scrap-it program to remove the worst polluting vehicles from the fleet. The loss tax dollars are a bargain to avoid a lifetime of vehicle emissions. For me, the benefits are undeniable when I imagine all the bleating, smoking, noisy cars and buses replaced with clean, quiet electric vehicles.

  • GearsOfWoe

    I’m so tired of that whiny complaint. It’s not as if I don’t pay taxes. For all my life, I’ve paid for other peoples’ cars, maybe even yours. And their financing and lease costs. And their licenses, registrations and insurance. And their fuel, oil, maintenance and repairs. Even their freakin’ tolls, parking and car washes. So please spare me you ill-informed condescension. The EV incentives are the only tax breaks ordinary people get to buy extraordinary cars that save them a lifetime of buying gas and an HOV sticker to speed their commute home to their families and give us a breathe of clean air in the bargain.

  • KrankyinVancouver

    If the goal was optimal health and minimal environmental impact, the best, absolutely lowest “cost” solution is to walk, bare-foot, naked, clutching a garment woven from cedar fibres. Avoid ALL the pollution caused and energy used in resource extraction, processing, manufacturing, (THANK GOD it is done ELSEWHERE!!), distribution, and then the CONSUMER PART YOU WORRY ABOUT, and then the recollection, reuse of parts and eventual recyling and disposal of those bits. Live au naturale, in harmony with nature and avoid disturbances to natural cycles caused by roads, bridges and civilization in general. If the ONLY measure was…. Grow up.

  • GearsOfWoe

    I’ll assume that you are just being argumentative rather than a complete idiot. Nonetheless you proved my point. The only things you considered in you childish example was health and environment. We choose to develop part of the environment in order to live better. Otherwise what is the point of civilization? How do you measure the success of a society? What “way of living” are you teaching you students? BTW walking barefoot, naked clutching a woven garment is the Swimsuit Edition of Sport’s Illustrated. Not the worst thing to aspire to.

  • KrankyinVancouver

    Facta non verba. I teach my students to experiment, risking being wrong is the only way to be right. Electric vehicles may be the best solution, depending on how you measure “best”. You may be right, and I will look seriously in the next few years at electrics at that time when I am serious about replacing my Honda Fit.

    Students should choose the way they wish to live for themselves. I will not judge. See if they can actually do it and sustain themselves and live by their principles. Live simply or extravagantly, Earn enough to buy a fleet of sports cars, pay hefty taxes, or ride their bike, walk and take transit. Most of the serious attempts have not succeeded, but lessons were learned.

    If an energy solution is very good, then logically put some skin in the game, build a business around the technology advantage and “prove” you are right, with profit. Or lose your entire grubstake and go home with a lesson learned. I let other teachers “preach” environmental leadership and I often disagree, but they still seem to come to me to fix their various technology issues. Again and again. And I am marketing a simple solution to moisture issues.

    If Uber comes to Vancouver soon, electric car drivers might have a real business advantage, or Yellow cab or some other delivery service will switch to electrics. It is very painful on the leading edge as an early adopter, I did that few times in different areas. I choose to learn from the mistakes of others on many matters, unless I am dedicated to being a leader, and making those mistakes myself.

    One friend had a water heater that used used french-fryer oil, and a massive thermal storage system so one burn was needed every three days. Unreliable was the real problem, and the varnish that built up on the injector nozzels required regular tear-downs and rebuilds, or no hot water on two mornings per winter. So he switched to a $12 000 wood boiler.

    Another friend was part of a major trial of bio-fuels on cruise-ships in Vancouver, but it had to be stopped as the turbine blades were being pitted, possibly by the potassium at the high temperatures. They had to cut into the side of the ship to get the turbine and generator out and replace it. Several million to learn about metalurgy issues with biofuels.

    The PhD I was interviewing about his incredibly efficient process, to decide an investment placement, kept avoiding answering certain direct questions, so I closed my book listened for a bit, then reopened it and asked again. After three passes I gave up and for the price of few coffees avoided linking myself to a nutbar. Five years later I was attending an event at UBC, and found him wandering around a parkade with a tied extension cord used as a belt.

    I visited the Grouse Mountain wind turbine about four years ago on a Pro-D day, and noted the display indicating energy generation. It was producing something $300 in electricity per month. Not a viable model for sustainable energy nor a business model except to soak people to ride up the elevator.

    There are better energy solutions that respect our environment, but I recommend my students to avoid the Royalty and High Priests of environmental activism, empirical experiments are better determinants of reality. Business success without government interference and support around a technology advantage is the best and most satisfying “proof” there is, revenge by living well. I also remind my students to minimize their exposure to the mentally ill, which is about 25% of the population exhibiting DSM-5 diseases yearly. And that social media is an ideal place for nutbars to post without having to face people, who might decide they are not playing will full decks. Playing on Diderot, “Humanity will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”

  • Daliman

    Look up at that big yellow ball in the sky somtime. Solar is essentially infinite power and when combined with batteries is lower cost than most other sources. Wind is also essentially infinite and lower cost. Electric vehicles are just at the tipping point and will soon be cheaper and more covienent. Electicity grid is everywhere and the charging networks are booming business.

  • S. Rafi Ahmed

    I second that… My 2015 Smart Electric has done 31K KMs in just 14 months, due in part to my 85 KM round-trip, daily commute to work. It is a hoot to drive – except on windy days – and saves me money that would have otherwise been spent on dino-juice & swindling service advisors.

  • GearsOfWoe

    This is a good example of why you have to do your research before even considering an electric vehicle. You can rule out all but the next generation of 200 mi BEVs, like the Bolt, Tesla Model 3 and (hopefully) the new LEAF. But even then, you need to check PlugShare to see if there is convenient charging at your destination. With a DCFC you can recharge in ~1-2 hours. But are you staying that long? Is it close to your in-town destination? If not you might consider a PHEV. Especially if you can drive electric most days. Then there is the issue of home charging. I can drive 80-90 km/day and still recharge overnight on an ordinary 110V outlet for about $30/mo. More than that I’d need a level 2 charger. Then, I would have given up and bought a Mitsue RVR, because I couldn’t install one in my strata townhome. This maybe more effort than most car buyers want to undertake.